When guns are outlawed…

 

One shot, well placed, should do it

Looting, robberies spread in Hurricane Sandy disaster areas. I’m not necessarily suggesting that Greenwich residents add a weapon to their other storm preparedness equipment – we have a most excellent police force – but I don’t imagine these Staten Island and the Jersey Shore neighborhoods would be suffering such predations if the invading thugs knew that their would-be victims were all armed and dangerous.

34 Comments

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34 responses to “When guns are outlawed…

  1. Demmerkrat Patriot

    Nothing like the sound of a Remington 870 racking a shell to convince would-be burglars to try another house ….

  2. db

    Assuming just the residents would have guns, once they were made easy to get, seems a bit short sighted. While I can use guns and I’m not a bad shot, hanging out in an area with any amount of lawlessness and expecting to be able to defend my stuff seems like an Alamo setup.

    People that advertise how easily they will shoot someone that steals from them are the first people I would avoid in a lawless situation.

    • People that advertise how easily they will shoot someone that steals from them are the first people I would avoid in a lawless situation.

      Exactly my point. An armed society is a polite society.

  3. Mr. 85 Broad St.

    Reminds me of that other great bumper sticker from Edelman’s Sporting Goods – “Make Love, Not War – Be Prepared for Both”.

  4. db

    I would avoid them because they are usually the stupid ones that haven’t trained properly to use a gun and would probably kill the wrong people if push came to shove.

  5. Chief Scrotum

    I won’t say which town this happened in, but had the cops swing by as I thought I saw flashlights and some movements in the trees. Happily no one there, but the cop who showed up asked if I had a gun. When I asked why, he said if he had been at a big accident or busy elsewhere, would not have gotten there for a while and you never know when a bad person will knock on your door.

    Just sayin’.

  6. Anonymous

    seriously, how how lunacy is involved in getting a gun permit for greenwich and/or ct in general?

    • Having just obtained a pistol permit (none required for long guns) this summer, I can answer you: quite a bit. Fingerprints checked in national FBI data base for felonies, violent misdemeanors, domestic violence protective orders,d.u.i. convictions, etc. in Greenwich, and completely illegally, a requirement of two letters of recommendation from acquaintances, Chief of Police investigation and a search of court records for involuntary admission to mental institutions.
      Plus more, undoubtedly. Oh! Proof of completion of a six-hour gun course, classroom and pistol range.
      None of that will weed out someone determined to do harm, of course, but I believe you’ll find that the folks holding pistol permits are not, by and large, the ones shooting people up. Even assuming they could pass a background investigation, it’s the gang bangers who tend to ignore gun laws as readily as they disobey laws against murder, mayhem and robbery. Go figure.

  7. AAnon

    #1, one of my favorite guns

  8. FlyAngler

    Dem Patriot – There are occasions when you post and I feel like commenting but life is short and why pick a fight. However, I do take exception to your comment in this case. I have a Remington 870 with extended mag tube, etc and it would be bad-ass should it ever have to be deployed in a defensive situation.

    However, I harbor no illusions about its auditory deterrence power if I am trying to avoid having to actually pull the trigger.

    The problem with the mythical fear factor of the sound of a racking pump shotgun is the assumption that the potential assailant has 1) heard the racking and was not focused on something else, 2) actually knows what that sound is and 3) gives a frog’s fart about what you have in your hand.

    Also, once you have racked it without response from the target, then what? Rack again and decrease the number of shells in the tube? Yell loudly that you just racked a 12 ga pump gun?

    If you are looking for real deterrence beyond armchair ninja myths, I suggest you mount a targeting laser on your 870, AR or handgun. A good red or green laser will cost as much or more than a 870 but such lasers have many benefits:

    First, it is a targeting device which just might get your first shot closer to target while your hands shake from adrenalin overload and fear.

    Second, you can control if and when you activate the laser, how long you keep it activated and at who you are aiming it.

    Third, unlike the issue of actually hearing a racking shotgun, putting a red or green do square on an opponent’s chest or face is much more likely to get their attention.

    Fourth, after the opponent freezes, they will likely jump for cover and reconsider whether they are picking on the right potential victim.

    Fifth, with an effective range of 25 to 100+ yards depending on ambient light conditions, a laser allows for a much greater stand-off distance than when depending on the sound of a racking pump gun.

    Sixth, if you have a combo laser and light, you have an extremely effective combination should fate ever place you in a close quarter combat situation.

    A laser is no guarantee of anything and neither is just having a weapon. To own a firearm places a responsibility on the owner to actually learn how to use it and train on a regular basis. If you own a 870, have you ever trained with it in a defensive situation? Ever taken a course? Have you ever actually patterned the gun with your defensive ammo to see how wide your pattern is at various distances? Are you using buckshot? If so, have you considered over-penetration if fired inside a house? Any kids or other family members behind walls easily penetrated by a 00 buck pellet that misses your assailant target?

    As Chris notes, “an armed society is a polite society” (Robert A. Heinlein) but a trained armed society is a safer society.

    Your mileage may vary but I would rather depend on a Crimson Trace barrel-mounted red laser than the clackety-clack of my 870 when trouble approaches.

  9. Cobra

    Locked and loaded. Open season on looters. Kill ‘em and
    grill ‘em, as Uncle Ted advocates.

  10. Texan

    This looting would never happen in my state. Just sayin’.

  11. FlyAngler

    Chris – I think you may be giving the wrong impression when you say:

    “in Greenwich, and completely illegally, a requirement of two letters of recommendation from acquaintances”.

    What you are suggesting, I believe, it that the reference letter requirement is NOT a requirement of the State of Connecticut who issues pistol carry permits. It is a requirement imposed by the Town of Greenwich, that is true. However, it is not “illegal” in the sense that it is breaking a law. That said, your documents do not get passed on to the Connecticut State Police for review until the “local law enforcement officer” clears them first and if reference letters are part of that process, then they are part of that process even if CSP never sees the letters nor needs them.

    While Connecticut is a “May Issue” state, it is mostly a “Shall Issue” regime where it takes “cause” to not issue a permit to a qualified applicant. However, “cause” could include not providing the two reference letters to the local LEO.

    One could probably make a court case out of this but why bother if it would jeopardize things on a practical basis.

    This seems a pretty thorough overview of gun laws in the state:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Connecticut

    • Fly, I’m told by gun dealers that the town of Greenwich’s requirement for such letters is completely in violation of state law and that the state is just waiting for a Greenwich resident to file a complaint so they can tell them to cease and desist (like everyone else, it was easier for me to get the two letters than fight city hall, so I never filed that complaint). In my book, acting in a manner that contravenes state law is “illegal”, especially when done by a law enforcement agency.

  12. Anonymous

    thanks chris for insight into the bureaucracy for legitimate gun purchase/use. glad to know that street thugs go thru same…

    i’ve been long considering self-defense weapon but never gotten around to it. plenty of military/law enforcement folks in family and i obviously know the responsibilities that gun ownership entails. given that i have neighbors with multiple kids on 3 sides of my home, i would want something that has effective stopping power but with greatly greatly diminished distance, i.e., a lot of dispersion at relatively close range. god forbid a few shots fired of single bullet that pierces our old house walls and goes across the yard. need to reduce those odds but still have something effective.

    • Cobra and Fly Angler have suggested lots of good ideas on this subject before and I’m sure they’ll be happy to chime in again – gentlemen? But I’ll remind you of what I learned and what a number of policemen friends have confirmed: there’s nothing like a large dog to keep bad guys away. I recommend (the large model) Labradors, who will lovingly tolerate two-year-olds tugging their ears and crawling all over them and yet stand ready to tear down the door to get at strangers. Maybe not sufficient against a rampaging mob, but here In Greenwich we’re far more likely to encounter creeps like those Chesire murderer/rapists – a large dog would have stopped those two cold.

  13. FlyAngler

    Chris – Whether illegal in the literal sense or “illegal” in that “it just ain’t right” sense, who is going to challenge that requirement? Who is going to have a black mark put in their Town records that leads to their becoming a focus for the local constabulary? Given patrol cars now have license plate scanning systems, what is the increased likelihood of getting pulled over if you are “the guy” who cost the Town money and embarrassed the chief LEO? Maybe that is too paranoid but if anyone in Hartford is waiting for a Greenwich resident to make a complaint, they are going to be waiting a very long time (and I am not convinced the dealers aren’t talking their book on that).

    How about “open carry” versus “concealed carry”? Technically, Connecticut issues a “carry” permit that is mute on concealed versus open. Yet, local law enforcement finds ways of discourage open carry (carrying a legally registered handgun in a holster that is visible to others). Thus, if you walked down Greenwich Ave carrying an old Colt 45 in a cowboy style holster, odds are you would get stopped by the police. Further, if you refused to stop carrying the pistol openly, they could then write you up or arrest you for Breach of Peace if you caused those around you to fear for their safety. Then, if convicted of Breach, you could have your carry permit revoked due to your being a law enforcement problem.

    Sorry about the length but one has to pick one’s battles wisely, something you seem to appreciate.

  14. FlyAngler

    Anon@1:54 – I attended a defensive rifle course at the SIG Academy in NH a while back (highly recommended) and heard something counter-intuitive. That is, if you are worried about over-penetration then a 00 buck shotgun may not a good choice. Consider that a 2.75″ buckshot shell usually has 7 or 8 round shot that are roughly 30 caliber and that they can travel through multiple layers of wall board when fired from close distances. Turns out that 223/5.56 AR bullets actually pose a smaller over-penetration risk then big round buckshot balls. The typical 55-65 grain 223/5.56 bullets, particularly if they are hollow point s(i.e. not full metal jacket or ball ammo) deform and deflect quite easily when they strike wall board or structural lumber.

    Thus, while it might seem counter-intuitive, an AR as a home defense weapon may make more sense than a shotgun loaded with 2.75 or 3″ buckshot shells.

    And if an AR seems overkill (bad pun), the a 9mm or larger handgun loaded with modern hollow-points and sporting a tactical light and/or laser might just be better than a scattergun.

  15. Independent

    I have no problems with gun ownership. but am curious if there are any statistics comparing the frequency that gun owners actually protect themselves from a crime to the number of accidental shootings and shootings in anger that thee are from legally owned guns. .

    • The NRA does provide those statistics, Independent and you can, as they say, look it up. I do know that the economist who wrote Freakonomics discovered that children are something like 100 times more likely to drown in a swimming pool than be injured by a gun – he dug up those numbers after overhearing a mother, who he happened to know had a swimming pool in her yard, tell another mother, :i would never let Jimmy play over at that boy’s house – they have a gun!
      Cities with the most liberal gun laws also have the lowest crime rates while Chicago, New York and Detroit take turns hosting the murder capital of the world title.
      And so on. If guns make you nervous then by all means don’t own one, but you have little to fear if your neighbor does. You’ll probably be safer than otherwise, in fact.

  16. FlyAngler

    Indie – I do know such stats are out there. Probably more important would be data like the study from Cato “Tough Targets: When Criminals Face Armed Resistance from Citizens” which you can find at this link:

    http://www.cato.org/pubs/wtpapers/WP-Tough-Targets.pdf

    I have read it and recommend it to anyone interested in the topic. The difference here relative to the most widely kept statistics is that this looks at the impact of armed citizens when firearms are involved but not discharged, something official police statistics usually ignore.

    Executive Summary:
    The ostensible purpose of gun control legislation is to reduce firearm deaths and injuries. The restriction of access to firearms will make criminals unable to use guns to shoot people. Gun control laws will also reduce the number of accidental shootings. Those are the desired effects, at least in theory. It is important, however, for conscientious policymakers to consider not only the stated goals of gun control regulations, but the actual results that they produce.

    What would be the effect of depriving ordinary, law-abiding citizens from keeping arms for self-defense? One result seems certain: the
    law-abiding would be at a distinct disadvantage should criminals acquire guns from underground markets. After all, it is simply not possible
    for police officers to get to every scene where they are urgently needed.

    Outside of criminology circles, relatively few people can reasonably estimate how often people use guns to fend off criminal attacks. If policymakers are truly interested in harm reduction, they should pause to consider how many crimes — murders, rapes, assaults, robberies — are thwarted each year by ordinary persons with guns. The estimates of defensive gun use range between the tens of thousands to as high as two million each year.

    This paper uses a collection of news reports of self-defense with guns over an eight-year period to survey the circumstances and outcomes of defensive gun uses in America.

    Federal and state lawmakers often oppose repealing or amending laws governing the ownership or carrying of guns. That opposition is typically based on assumptions that the average citizen is incapable of successfully employing a gun in self-defense or that possession of a gun
    in public will tempt people to violence in “road rage” or other contentious situations. Those assumptions are false. The vast majority of gun owners are ethical and competent. That means tens of thousands of crimes are prevented each year by ordinary citizens with guns

  17. Balzac

    It is said that the most common case of guns protecting citizens is the woman faced with a rape attempt, who simply brings her gun out of her purse. Creep scrams, but this event is almost never reported to the authorities. Why should she bother? Since these frequent events are not reported, the statistics undercount the real deterrent effect of guns.

  18. Anonymous

    when i took my required gun safety course for my gun permit, i was also told the letter of recommendation requirement was beyond the parameters set forth in the state statute. i was advised not to comply, and followed that advice. when i turned in my application and paperwork at the police department, i was asked for the letters of recommendation. i informed the woman collecting the documents that the town could not compel production of the letters and could not deny the application for failure to produce them. my permit was issued within the alloted time.
    bottom line: simply don’t provide the letters. if the permit isn’t issued, appeal to the state. the permit will be issued.

  19. GWChase

    If you can’t find three friends who will write letters of recommendation for you, maybe I don’t want you to have a gun!
    GW

    • When letters of recommendation are required before exercising our First Amendment rights then perhaps we can consider requiring them for our Second, but by that time, most of us may already be exercising the right, with or without the permission of the government.

  20. Cobra

    FlyAngler at 2:59 PM has it right. AR-15 and a 9MM/.45 pistol or .357 mag. revolver will enable one to handle most unwanted visitations/confrontations. M18A1 Claymores mounted outside the home’s points of entry will seal the deal.

  21. Cobra

    Multiple new installations in creatively hidden locations, Chris, but give me some advance notice and I’ll temporarily deactivate one should you wish to drop by.

  22. FlyAngler

    Chris – I think it is time you introduce me to Cobra. When “World War Z” starts, we will need to band together to fight off the zombies and desperate, unprepared neighbors.

    Cobra – I split the difference between the 9 and the 45 with 40. I figure if a Speer Gold Dot duty ammo in 40 can’t stop things, a 45 won’t make much more difference. Key is still to be able to hit what you need to so off to the range this weekend. Regarding Claymores, I will defer to you since I would likely point the wrong side the wrong way. I prefer a man-trap lined with poop dipped punji sticks with a Welcome mat thrown over the top.

    BTW, have you seen the trailer to the WWZ movie yet? Super fast zombies – WTF?! I appreciate that they had to make it an action movie for Brad but “speeders” are an abomination in zombie lore. Then again, a zombie pic that is global in scope needs to be sped up. However, also requires alot more ammo than one would need against shamblers.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcwTxRuq-uk

  23. Cobra

    FlyAngler…I agree the .40 is a superb round. However, I have yet to acquire a piece in that caliber, for two reasons: 1) As 9mm and .45 have been military issue for decades, ammo (both new manufacture and milsurp) is currently relatively economical at bricks-and-mortar retail and from online suppliers such as http://www.ammoman.com and http://www.ammo4guns.com. 2) When the defecation hits the rotation, we could raid government ammo dumps to replenish our supplies and pick up a few RPG’s and other serious ordinance while we’re there.

  24. FlyAngler

    Cobra – I own several 40s and a couple of 9s and have plenty of ammo in FMJ and JHP in both calibers. If you check the sources you mentioned, you will find there is plenty of relatively cheap practice and duty ammo in 40 due to the large number of government agencies that adopted the 40 in the past decade. Many of those large ammo orders getting folks abuzz are for 40.

    Our handguns come from the same manufacturer and are the series so that they all have a common Manual of Arms. I want to make sure my family can pick up any of these and know how to operate it, even with only modest training. Quite frankly, in the limited context we are discussing, I don’t get folks who mix Glocks with 1911s with revolvers in all manner of calibers.

    Not sure you will find too many Soviet or ChiCom style RPGs in state-side depots but they should have plenty of M203 to hang under your AR’s barrels. Should grab some stored M14s as well and a pile of 7.62.

  25. Libertarian Advocate

    Hornaday’s Critical Duty in 9mm is a very good self defense round. Watch this: [youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mpXZCQhh7s?rel=0&w=560&h=315%5D