Who’s tougher than a Navy SEAL?

Too funny,in view of yesterday’s Senate vote. My girls were just down for tea and the conversation turned to a young man we know who has served at least two tours of duty as a Navy Seal.  Katie has another friend who is still in training for that corp, having survived cuts from 350 to 130, but still, only 30 will make it. I mentioned the other fellow and she said matter of factly, “yeah, and he’s gay”. She’d know – she grew up with him – but wouldn’t it be a loss if our country lost his service? I think so.  By the way, I think the current generation is far more comfortable with all this than mine is. I’m no fan of political correctness, but I do think the acceptance of homosexuals is an improvement over what they faced growing up in the 60s.

40 Comments

Filed under Uncategorized

40 responses to “Who’s tougher than a Navy SEAL?

  1. Strikes me as quite odd that a remark like that would come from someone Katie’s age. As you said, for their generation, one’s sexual preferences is a non-issue. So if it’s a non-issue, why even mention it? I could see you or I mentioning it, not to be disparaging, but as an aside. Color commentary. But from a 20-something? I’m surprised.

  2. Peg

    I must admit this is an issue that makes me want to slap social conservatives. As virtually every gay person has said to me, “If being gay were a choice, then why would anyone choose it?!?”

    People are born with their sexual orientation, just as they are born with brown eyes or a likelihood of growing to 6’1″. And just as there are great people who have brown eyes and are 6’+ – and lousy ones – those who are gay can be wonderful or awful, caring or crappy. Depends upon the person; not upon the orientation.

    I don’t care if people who serve in the military are attracted to those of the same sex or not – I only care if they can do the job and are willing to protect us with their lives. If so – my unending gratitude and respect to them. Period.

    How tough is this??

  3. OK, that makes a little more sense.

  4. Out Looking In

    Come on Chris, we all know that all gay people think about is having sex and “converting” straights. Homosexuality is clearly a psychiatric illness that requires religious cleansing

  5. Peg

    BTW – I think that why so many gay people say “why would you chose being gay?” isn’t because being gay is bad – but because of how gay people have been treated. Why would one wish to be treated in such a poor manner?

    Answer; they would not – and thus would be highly unlikely to freely make such a choice.

  6. uncle curly

    one more chorus of “I’m a navy seal and I’m ok…………..

  7. fred

    fuck labels………

    live in a box if you choose to

    but dont ask me to join

    however, if i did

    i’d be screaming at the top of my lungs for pansexual rights

  8. ilsa

    in ww2 as the allies approached the local townspeople were apprehensive as to the way that their wives and daughters would be treated……………

  9. Donato Loscalzo

    Ill pass not judgement on the serious issue of being gay etc etc. As a foreign observer though I cannot help but being appalled at the corrupt political process in Washington that has led to the repeal of the DADT bill. Didn’t you guys have an election this past November? Didn’t the Democrtaic Party lose that election? On what political ground did a party that has lost the elections managed to squeeze through such an important piece of legislation knowing so well that their window of opportunity had, in effect, had already expired? But even more depressing is Obama’s attitude. Simply sickening his lack of courage, initiative and leadership. It is clear that hadn’t the Democrats lost he would have found cover, delay and find an eloquent but empty phrase to appease that political side but probably would not have acted. Having lost the election, he was put under stress by his left wing and, cowardly as usual, allow a departing political class to do the things he had no courage to do himself. Such a disappointment, not only as political leader, but as a man…………..

    • Donato, I don’t disagree with your overall appraisal of Obummer, but the DADT repeal was supported by a large number of Republicans, as well as Demmerkrats. I think that society changed in the 17 years since the rule was passed. And I’m glad that the courts didn’t do this – that would have been true oppression whereas this change is a reflection, I believe, of a social shift of opinion. I know that I certainly changed my mind over those two decades.

  10. Greenwich Gal

    Donato, Dude…in the new millenium nobody gives a damn who you sleep with. Now that is freedom.

  11. JRH

    In other news, a man considered a serious candidate for the Republican presidential nomination in 2012 was interviewed today (yes, in 2010) and expressed support for a noxious white supremacist organization.

    http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/20/barbours-comments-focus-attention-on-race/?scp=2&sq=haley%20barbour&st=cse

    I fully expect to see this excused and explained away by the same people who get red in the face about President Obama “pallin’ around” with terraces.

  12. ajnock

    The commandant of the Marine Corps said allowing gays to serve openly will cost lives. It will be a major distraction. Think a little. Do you want to bunk or shower with someone of the same sex who is physically attracted to you? Do we allow men and women to share the same barracks now? Of course not. But it’s ok to allow gay men to sleep in proximity of straight men? And already we are hearing the repeal did not go far enough. Now libs are demanding full spousal rights for the partners of gay soldiers. where does it end except badly?

    • I’ll tell where it ends: the destruction of America!. Nah, just kidding. The few times i’ve drawn the attraction of gays (way back when, when I was much younger and might have appeared attractive, a simple “I’m not interested” served to end the would-be engagement. I’m sure those same words will work today.

  13. JRH

    Ajnock, it’s always funny to me when folks like you presume that all gay men are attracted to you. Are you attracted to every woman you come into contact with? Do you require physical barriers in the workplace to restrain your libido from inappropriate interaction with female colleagues? Give me a break.

    For the life of me, I can’t figure out what motivates someone like you. Why do you care about spousal benefits for gay couples? Is your life richer or fuller knowing that there are people out there who want the same treatment as others but are denied it under the law? I don’t get it, really don’t.

  14. Inagua

    ajnock,

    As one who has been an indifferent agnostic on the issue, I confess that your point about communal showers was one I had never considered. Would a gay advocate please address this point?

  15. JRH

    Inagua: again, this rests on the presumption that gay men are inherently more promiscuous than straight men, and that all gay men are attracted to all straight men and constantly on the prowl. This is a ludicrous and frankly outdated belief. Gay and straight men interact in close personal quarters every day across America — at the locker room of their local gyms. Should these rooms be segregated by sexual orientation?

    We ask the men and women of our military to do incredible things every day. They walk across valleys strewn with mines and stand guard on forward operating bases surrounded by invisible enemies. The idea that having them share a bathroom with a gay comrade is asking too much is so preposterous it’s hardly deserving of debate.

  16. Jimbo

    Yeah, can you imagine being at some remote, dangerous outpost in Afghanistan and two or three gay soldiers in your unit go off on night patrol up some nearby moutain? You’re there (a.) missing your girlfriend, and (b.) worried the gay soldiers will get distracted by each other and pay insufficient attention to patrol duties. Good for the gays and good for their supporters (women and lefties) back home; not good for the pyschological and phyiscial well-being of our straight soldiers.

    • Jimbo, you’re an odd duck – do you really think gays are so sex-crazed that they’d forget their duty? Do you know any gays (you probably do, but you don’tknow it). That Navy SEAL I mentioned is a highly decorated vet with a couple of combat duties in Iraq and now, Afghanistan and somehow managed to supress his urge to copulate with the man next to him.There arethousands like him, currently serving. The military hasn’t collapsed, and it won’t now.

  17. Donato Loscalzo

    Guys, I have been misunderstood. I am not against gay rights, I am not a promoter or supporter either but definitely not against. I was really ranting against Barack Obama and in general on how Washington really conducts its business………………..he is not better than the others and actually he is worse due to his arrogance coupled with an incredible lack of leadership qualities.

  18. JDinBkln

    Sure, Inagua, I’ll address it: just as JRH says, being gay does not mean that you’re attracted to every person of the same sex. Guess what, ajnock? You’re probably not as good looking as you think you are, and to actually think that all gay men will find you so attractive that they won’t be able to control themselves around you is laughable. Most gay guys I know are really picky, so unless you’re Brad Pitt, don’t worry — they probably won’t give you a second glance.

  19. Anonymous

    To try to answer Inagua’s request: I am gay, and always have been, though I didn’t publicly ‘come out’ till I was well into my fourth decade. (I’m 65 now.) I served honorably in the US Navy for six year during the Viet Nam era, 1968 – 1974; four years and nine months of that tour I served on board the USS Barney, DDG-6, sharing a ‘bedroom’ with 65 other sailors, and the head and showers with about 110 other members of the crew. The last two years of my hitch I was an E-6, a first class petty officer.

    Of course, I had to lie on my application to join in 1968, and kept quiet about my being gay. (Having seen the teasing one of my junior high school classmates got for choosing to change in to his gym uniform in one of the toilet stalls rather than in the locker room with everyone else — they called him a homo for that, as illogical as that is — I kept quiet about my interest in my male peers.) He was straight, but kids can be very cutting at times. I stayed deeply closeted for years, living a lie, and engaging in such self-destructive behavior as consuming over a gallon of gin a week. I was a mess. (The “choice” is whether to live a lie, or to have some personal integrity and acknowledge that one is gay.)

    Specifically addressing the shower issue. Most of the gay guys I know wouldn’t make a move on anyone unless there was some indication that the offer would be accepted. And as CF said, a simple, “No, thanks – not interested” suffices for any unwanted overture. Also, I certainly do NOT find every male attractive. As a matter of fact, many straight men don’t take care of themselves, and, as a result, are very UNattractive to me. We all have a “type” that we find attractive.

    It is arrogant of some men to think that every gay guy is lusting after them — just as it would be arrogant of them to think that they are God’s gift to all women.

    As to the ‘discomfort’ some straight men might feel as being the object of sexual desire from a gay guy: so whose problem is that? Not the gay guy, but the straight guy. And how do women feel being the object of sexual desire for 90% of men? Sure there are rapists who attack females, but that seems to be more a power thing rather than sexual lust. Unless there is a come hither look, or other signal, most men seem to be able to control their own lust, don’t you think?

    The military has plenty of rules against fraternization, and other inappropriate action of the troops. There’s no reason to expect that there would be widespread disregard of such rules in the post-DADT era. Discipline is a strong point of our fine military.

    By the way, there are plenty of gay and lesbian women serving now, and who have served, honorably, not only in the US military but in other countries. There have been some pretty famous homosexual warriors, as Alexander the Great. http://tinyurl.com/34h9m2e

    Many of the US allies have gays serving openly in their military services without issues.

    Back in the early 1980s, Edmund White wrote in his book,
    “States of Desire”: “Being gay in a straight world, even a hypothetically permissive straight world, is so alienating that the only way to avoid depression is through the assertion of one’s own gay identity. Anger can take three forms — self-hatred, uncontrollable rage, and calm but constant self-assertion. The first solution is tiresome, the second useless, the third wise….” This can explain why some of us gay men and women do assert our gay identities (to the chagrin of some straight folks who say it would be OK if they didn’t rub our faces in it).

    I was asserting my gay identity in 1984 when I was the spokesperson for the gay community during Gay Pride in Syracuse, doing all the TV and radio interviews. I was ready to bet my job on it by coming out publicly. Fortunately, my company and customers were OK with the situation, but that’s another story.

    How often do straight folks assert their heterosexual identities? A lot. Think about it. You say, “my wife” or “my husband”, “my kids”, etc. The photo of your spouse on your desk. The wedding band. It’s asserting your heterosexuality.

    I’ve become very comfortable with my gay identity; wouldn’t want to change. I’ve met, over the years, many wonderful human beings who happen to be gay or lesbian. We are, indeed, everywhere! All walks of life, all colors, all economic levels, all educational levels, too. Most straight people have no idea how many gays and lesbians are around.

    And not casting aspersions on Marines, it’s a pretty common understanding among gay men that there seem to be more gay Marines than gay soldiers, airmen, or sailors. Just sayin’. I asked a Marine friend once about that and he said something about “taking care of your buddy”. It’s ironic that the commandant of the Marines was the one who was most against the repeal of DADT.

    Also, it’s been my experience that the most virulent anti-homosexual comments come from people who deep down know they are themselves gay, but are deeply closeted, often married. They have been taught (as we all have) by some churches and society that gay is not good, so they suppress their own gay identities, and live the lie. Just get over it: your homophobic comments betray your own insecurities.

  20. Wishing & Hoping

    ok, im a pretty conservative/straight/married/children/mom…and i see this as a non-issue. i agree with chris above that its REALLY silly to think there have not been many gay men & women in our service for a long time and they aren’t sneaking away while on patrol. Would you object if a man & two women were sent out on that patrol? In the freezing or boiling night, carrying equipment, being alert for their lives and WHAM baby! All people should have the right to love and have a family. I think that legal life-partnership should be standard (with all rights accordingly) under the law (for all sexes however they choose), and that those that choose to have a church ordained marriage, should then do so.

  21. Jimbo

    What? You’re talking about gays’ past success serving in a military where they had to hide their sexuality, as evidence that they would serve successfully in a new military where they can display their sexuality openly.
    In other words, you’re using the purported success of the status quo to justify radical change. As a philosopher you probably know a fancy Latin term for that kind of non-logic. (No offense… but you did call me an “odd duck.”)

  22. Inagua

    “…this rests on the presumption that gay men are inherently more promiscuous than straight men, and that all gay men are attracted to all straight men and constantly on the prowl.”

    Wrong, my question rests exclusively on my own experience with naked women. I like them a lot. While I have only showered with one naked woman at a time, I am highly confident that I would enjoy the sight of a large number of naked women in a communal shower with me, even if they were all strangers that I might not be attracted to. Why would a homosexual man react differently to a communal shower with men?

  23. JRH

    Inagua, I think you’re doing more to reveal things about yourself than to shed any real light on an overdue change to military personnel policy.

  24. Inagua

    Anonymous,

    Thank you for your very interesting response. I particularly enjoyed the Wilson quote, and I am glad that window number three worked so well for you.

    My shower question was not focused on attraction, but on the involuntary objectfication of fellow showers by a voyeur like me. I would love the opportunity to oogle a bunch of naked women in a shower with me, even if I wasn’t disposed to “make a move on them.” You recognised this issue with your rhetorical question, “And how do women feel being the object of sexual desire for 90% of men?” If naked women should not be compelled to shower with a voyeur like me, why should naked men be compelled to shower with homosexual man? I am not saying, because I do not know, that all homosexual men are as voyeuristic as I am, but even if one is as bad as me, the shower room would be very a uncomfortable place for a lot of people.

  25. JRH

    All right, this is getting creepy.

  26. ajnock

    67% of marines in combat say having gays openly serve with them in the field is a dangerous distraction. Which is why Gen Amos spokeout agaisnt DADT. That is all we should be cooncerned about. Why would anyone take the word of Barney Frank over that of the Marine Corps commander or of the troops themselves that repeal of DADT is harmless? See this:
    http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2010/12/marine-amos-dont-ask-criticism-121510/

  27. ed krumeich

    Do you shower at the Y? Do you shower at your club? If so, the odds are you showered with a gay man. Get over it!
    People forget that “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” was a policy adopted during the Clinton Administration intended to protect gay service men and women from aggressive outing. It is past its time and it is an important step forward that gay service people are allowed to serve openly. My observation is that younger people today are more tolerant about differences like race, gender and sexual orientation than we are, just as we were more tolerant than our parents. There will be some problems in the future, just as there were when units were racially integrated and women were allowed to serve in combat zones, but the country will benefit from opening up the services.

  28. JRH

    Ajnock, as mentioned earlier, a majority of servicemen were also against integration of the armed services when Truman gave the order in the late 40s. Guess what? Civilian leadership gives the ultimate order in a democracy. And it’s bullsh*t — really no other word for it — to set this up as Barney Frank against the Marines. Is Admiral Mullen, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the highest-ranking military officer in the country, just some fruitcake who wants to change the national anthem to a Liza Minelli revue?

    Your bigotry is a thing of the past, ajnock. See ya.

  29. Georgie in Greenwich

    Anyone person willing to fight for their country deserves that the law protect them from bullies who target them just for their sexual preference. We will look back on this issue in 7, maybe 10 years, and be amazed it existed as long as it did….particularly, during war, without conscription.

  30. Peg

    Like most other people, gay people are attracted to those who would be attracted to them – aka, other gay people. So, all those straight guys out there who are scared to death that someone might see the family jewels in the shower can chill out; gay guys have no interest in you – or any part of you.

    Gay people have always served in the military. Do some people think that these same folks who have served admirably are now going to attempt to jump their bones? I don’t think so. All that will happen is that they’ll be able to admit to having a loving partner just as straight guys have a wife, etc. Not having to hide anymore does not mean they are going to start making moves on straight guys.

    Thanks for your service, and thanks for attempting to set everyone straight (ahem) Anonymous. Unfortunately, some people have such strong biases, it’ll be tough to get through to them.

  31. fred

    The recent winner of the Miss Asia NYC transsexual beauty contest is a former sgt and muay thai instructor in the Thailand Marines. Drop dead gorgeous i might add. I should know as I had a front row vip seat.

    In asian pacific countries, even christian-ized ones, its no big deal to be gay or even transgendered. very regular.
    So whats your problem?

  32. JRH

    Gotta say it makes my bleeding heart beat with joy to see CF be so eloquent in defense of civil rights.

    • JRH, you might want to check out libertarians -Former Bush era Solicitor General Ted Olson was the lead lawyer in opposing the CA ban on gay marriage (joined by David Boise, a liberal).As my favorite “conservative” Glenn Reynolds says, a perfect world includes a happily married gay couple with assault rifles in the closet!

  33. w b h

    Just for the record…’Anonymous’ at 11:36 a.m. today was my (w b h) post. The anonymity was an unintended consequence of a recent cookie clean-up.

  34. Cos cobber

    As I have said before, it’s time to phase out DADT. While it might be the so called right thing to do, more importantly in my view we have a lot to lose without their service.

  35. pulled up in OG

    Advocate: Yes, OK. Back to “don’t ask, don’t tell” real quick. How long do you anticipate the certification process [will be]?

    BHO: I spoke to Admiral Mullen today. He said he’s taking the implementation manual that was a companion to the attitudinal survey off to vacation with him. He is prepared to implement. I spoke to other of the service chiefs, including, for example, General Amos. We saw that in the attitudinal surveys there was the most resistance in the Marine Corps. But Jim Amos said to me that he’s ready to implement and he’s going to make it work.
    So my strong sense is this is a matter of months…

    Advocate: Not years?

    BHO: Absolutely not years — and that we will get this done in a timely fashion, and the chiefs are confident that it will get done in a timely fashion. They understand this is not something that they’re going to be slow-walking.

    http://advocate.com/printArticle.aspx?id=169908